Black Moon Lilithium

Black Moon Lilith found in strong chart positions can show a person with intensity and charisma. Black Moon Lilith is not really about ones outwardly persona however a much deeper and strangely attractive quality. One could say that L Ron Hubbard, the founder of the Church of Scientology has a certain charismatic appeal.

Ron Hubbard’s chart shows his Moon in the ninth house of religion with contacts to both Saturn and Chiron. The Moon trine Saturn is about conforming and being strong in the light of another threatening sense of abandonment. Ron’s upbringing has led him into experiences where showing little emotion is the best way to go. His moon is opposite Chiron which tends to suggest boundary issues and the inability to express his natural feeling world. With Black Moon on the ascendant Ron Hubbards charismatic appeal lures others closer where he can then establish attachments and begin his teaching and preaching.

The Black Moon is mesmerizing perhaps, like a woman with great sex appeal in front of a male audience. The darker side of Lilith emits a strong transference that others identify in their own unique manner. Neptune on the ascendant for a person works in a similar manner where projective identification lures others into a false sense of love for the person. The person idealizes, sees what they want to see in the person. The Lilithium at the ascendant captivates the other, by way of a familiar memory,  of knowing the person more intimately than any real first introductions allow.

Unfortunately the Islamic magistrates in Schapelle Corby’s drug smuggling case did not allure to her feminine charms.

Once again the chart shows a sensitive area around normal lunar expression of personality. Moon Chiron contact can restrict and add a sense of fear to a normal feeling responses. Schapelle did cry and appear to have emotions during her court hearings however in my view it takes these intense experiences for the a Moon Chiron person to actually have normal feelings. Venus the chart ruler in Shapelle Corby’s case is conjunct Black Moon Lilith. She was a model and a beauty therapist before being caught as a drug runner. Venus and Black Moon Lilith is a relational charismatic appeal which Corby used with her lawyers and the Australian Population. Her voluptuous nature and strange sense of appeal has made her a house hold name, thanks to all the news items.

A woman who worked as a sport massage therapist when I first met her, claimed that she was in the German cycling team earlier in her life. This woman loved to show her extraordinary body off at night clubs. Men would stop in their tracks with their jaws dropping instantly, loving her for her body. There was no doubt her sex appeal was captivating, however there was much more going on.

I thought this woman was quite depressed when I first met her. A few years after our meeting I saw her at a party. She appeared as though she lived in a gym or at least her body size seemed to have doubled in the proportions that I remembered. I thought she was on steroids, yet she was still beautifully proportioned like an “Olympian” goddess. The people close to me said that whenever she goes into a restaurant the whole place goes quiet and mens eyes are all focused in her direction.

She is the ultimate temptress with a an added extra, in Vesta. Both Vesta and Black Moon Lilith at the ascendant make a formidable combination of self beauty (narcissism) and charismatic appeal. Much like Warren Beatty’s sex appeal with women. She indeed loves herself and is setting out to lure the world to look and love her too. Of course, the Moon trine Venus, trine Vesta/BML in her chart is a gift of the gods especially for the feminine. Apparently as the gossip goes, her sexual prowess is only limited by the trail of men unable to keep up with her. I think the Lilithium in her case, is that she loved to be objectified as a woman.

An interesting technique in my opinion is stripping the chart down to basic chart functions and then adding the other chart points in order of one’s natural responses to the initial chart function. In that way one can identify coping mechanisms and reactive expressions in personality. Here is the basic chart function in a chart.

I wonder how many astrologers would say “Eewww” after seeing this chart dynamic? The Moon is at the “bends” (square nodes), besieged by Chiron and Black Moon Lilith. I allowed the opposite aspect of Moon and Pluto to show because some astrologers would say the aspect is in orb (in range of operation). When lunar expression is limited, the psyche will find other means of survival. The transformational qualities involved for this kind of limited lunar expression shown above, has a great deal to do with the person finding other ways to express themselves.

A person would truly be administered with medications such as Lithium if one’s natural expression (lunar) did not function in some way. The Moon is the free child (natural expression in personality) and of course the moon represents the mother. In the development of personality the mother plays an important role in the above configuration and the chart similarly shows a defensive structure or survival pattern. The astrology of the Moon describes the condition of the parent and therefore the quality of her personality as experienced by the owner of the chart. The mother can transfer positive and negative qualities of her traits to her children by what is known as transference.

In Transactional Analysis, the phenomenon of parents transferring (getting rid of) their own life script patterns onto their children is colloquially known as “The Hot Potato”by Fanita English.

One could say that I have some of my Mothers Lilithium in me and that I can magically take on her issues so that she doesn’t have to deal with them. She can banish them from her experience temporarily if I choose to take them on. I must say that in some cases this still applies in my relationship with my mother although I am more aware of the process now. The Black Moon Lilith in my case is perhaps the demonic self expression in times when lunar or other natural expressions are limited.

Although these functions in the chart may take years to understand and integrate in ones personality the result in my case has been a career of psychotherapy. When working with anger it is helpful if the counsellor has intimately dealt with their own anger. When dealing with a client’s limited natural expression and their “Lilith” in personality it seems potentially useful to have an intimate understanding of ones own Lilith.

The transference factor involved with Lilith is varied in its actual direction in the psyche. Lilith can be projected outwardly or introjected (inwardly) in personality. It is a powerful and intense energy that others intuitively sense in the “Lilith prominent” person.

In relationships Lilith can allure and attract the wrong people for the right relational learning experiences.


Counter Transference and Lilith

Conversations with Lilith


39 Responses to “Black Moon Lilithium”

  1. 1 roses April 19, 2008 at 09:13

    Ooo Ken,
    I liked it when you said…

    “It is a powerful and intense energy that others intuitively sense in the “Lilith prominent” person. In relationships, Lilith can allure and attract the wrong people for the right relational learning experiences.”

    I really liked this one.

  2. 2 kingsley April 19, 2008 at 10:20

    what did you like about it Roses


  3. 3 roses April 19, 2008 at 15:04

    I like it when someone takes something that is generally seen as fairly full on and sometimes very frightening and sees or seems to understand why. Its just a lovely thought.


  4. 4 roses April 19, 2008 at 15:08

    Ok, i mean, arsnic has its uses – umm, perhaps more like… weeds are only plants that are growing where it isn’t desirable (by the garden owner) to be growing. Everything has its reason for being?

    I don’t know how to say why i like it, but i did enjoy seeing it written here.


  5. 5 kingsley April 21, 2008 at 10:25

    I think you expressed your reasons very well Roses.

  6. 6 roses May 7, 2008 at 17:58

    I’m glad i watched the one that isn’t there anymore before when you first posted it. It’s gone now and i can’t even seem to comment on the little bit that does show up. So… that’s a tad weird!

    Thank you for your encouragement… but where are you?


  7. 7 Lynn July 28, 2008 at 17:40

    Just checked up on the position and aspects of Black Moon Lillith in my own chart and lo’ and behold it is conjunct Venus, NN and Uranus all in the 8th house. Obviously being in the 8th house there is a scorpionic flavour but would you say that Lillith herself has overtones of Scorpio too? I was impressed with your awareness of Lillith being expressed as “demonic” when your Lunar expression had been impacted. I shall have to work through the myriad of alternatives that her presence has alerted me to.

  8. 8 kingsley July 28, 2008 at 19:26

    Good stuff Lynn. I am wondering whether you calculated the Black Moon Lilith as the true apogee rather than the mean apogee? The tru apogee is the better one to use in my view. It varies quite a bit Lynn.


  9. 9 Lynn July 29, 2008 at 04:11

    Thanks for that – just adjusted calculations and now there are no significant aspects whatsoever, amazing the difference a few degrees makes! A smidge disappointing – rather fancied myself as Lucretia Borgia incarnate (or re-incarnate)! I used h13 as the reference on (osc. apogee) ?

  10. 10 kingsley July 29, 2008 at 07:55

    Phew Lynn. I know what you mean though, its kind of exciting to think lilith may have an emphasis and then not. I wouldn’t have thought you were lilith/Uranus Lynn. That can be a gusty – windy – changing of direction lilith opperation. Lilith and Venus would be in my view one of the better combinations to have in a chart. Makes for quite a seductive charm.


  11. 11 kingsley July 29, 2008 at 07:59

    I think that sounds right Lynn, its not the “mean” calculation of BML. Not sure what you mean by h13?


  12. 12 Lynn July 29, 2008 at 12:08

    Here is the link via which explains the use of h13.

  13. 13 kingsley July 29, 2008 at 17:34

    Oh ok, yes I didn’t think it meant harmonic 13. Yes I think you have the right one Lynn. Perhaps I would have been quite surprised if you had Venus Black Moon and Uranus all together like that. It would seem incongruous to the way you comment here, your interent persona shall I say Lynn.

    Perhaps we could have discussed one night stands and falling in love at first sight if it was the case Lynn.


  14. 14 Lynn July 30, 2008 at 14:11

    What was it about my comments that contributed to the “incongruous” nature? It would be interesting to understand the perception that they have created. It all goes into the Ascendant/MC configuration for me. It always amazes me how the written word can inform, create and contribute to so much of the mental picture one has of someone.

  15. 15 kingsley July 30, 2008 at 15:24

    I am saying that your comments have not showed any incongruity Lynn. In other words I haven’t dectected any Lilith involvement. I know that sort of thing is difficult over the internet however sometimes it is aparrent. Your commenting here has been most cordial and pleasant indeed Lynn.


  16. 16 Eva April 20, 2009 at 00:12

    Hi again K!

    I am all hooked on a feeling 🙂 This is so fun, to find all your writings are so true, and alive. I have gone through kids horoscopes and friends and its fascinatiing. Seing a lot more by reading your site. I have a shamanic inspired teacher his Lilith conj his Moon he is a quiete but oooh so heavy at healing in sessions at a deep level. You put words of the transforming things Ive done the last 5 yrs. Great and profound writings! Yeah!
    PS True tantric life must be Liliths goals?!?

  17. 17 Eva April 20, 2009 at 00:15

    …forgot, which degrees is ok to use when saying this is a conj when it comes to Lilith? As it is a point only,some says it should be no more than 1-2 degrees from each others.

  18. 18 kingsley April 20, 2009 at 09:05

    Hello Eva, Thanks for your comments. I have a tendency to keep my “heavey healing” in check. Its about the client really and what they can or cant do in therapy. Perhaps I do not capitalise on my own Lilith so much as a therapist, however I do indentify her in some clients.

    One needs to know how to start a good working relationship with a persons Black Moon Lilith personality function.


  19. 19 kingsley April 20, 2009 at 09:16

    I usually stick to tight orbs Eva. It is a calculated point that I treat much the same as Fixed Stars. If there are other aspect patterns involved with Lilith perhaps orbs can be increased to 3 or 4 degrees max.


  20. 20 Sintruli April 27, 2009 at 05:44

    My Sun (in Leo) is conjunct Lilith in between the 7th and 8th houses. I am new to astrology and am finding it difficult to get an accurate, complete picture of what this exactly means. Any information would be appreciated. Thank you.

  21. 21 kingsley April 27, 2009 at 09:14

    Hello Sintruli

    I am sure the rest of your chart will reveal ways in which Sun and Lilith might opperate. For now all I can say is in your case is that Lilith resonates to the tune of authority. Your father’s expression has involved an unchecked – unconscious process in your life. Perhaps Lilith works supresses aspects of you identity or whatever the Sun rules?

    LIlithh and BML is a very complex function in the astrology chart. If you are new to astrology you have a wealth of other symbols and descriptions to explore. BML in my view takes a good deal of awareness and reflection to understand fully.

    With the amount of chart detail you have offered Sintruli – there is not much else to elaborate on.


  22. 22 kingsley April 27, 2009 at 09:56

    Well, I have written several blog articles on BML – Sintruli. Deciphering Lilith is hard full stop. Take your time you will get there Sintruli.


  23. 23 kingsley April 27, 2009 at 10:23

    Go to Lilith Edit page (Link is at the top of my blog) and scroll down to the bottome of the page to find the links to various blogs I have written on Black Moon Lilith.


  24. 24 kingsley April 28, 2009 at 17:41

    Hello Sintruli, yes sometimes Lillith can be an “extra ummph” in personality. It is interesting to know how others may relate to that “ummph”. This is one way of identifying and knowing how ones Dark Moon Lilith functions.


  25. 25 Raymond Andrews August 31, 2009 at 13:59

    True BML is prominent in my chart

    True BML in 5’42 Scorpio R in 2nd
    conjunct Sun in 5’20 Scorpio in 2nd
    trine Moon in 3’11 Pisces in 6th

    other things conjunct it
    Ixion (plutino) in 5’25 Scorpio in 2nd
    heliocentric South Eris Node in 5’30 Scorpio in 2nd

  26. 26 kingsley August 31, 2009 at 14:09

    Hello Raymond, true BML seems to have quite an emphasis when conjunct another planet so closely. Not everyone has a BML connection to their planets or angles. In some charts it is just not opperational. That is a handy trine for the Moon Sun expression that you describe.


  27. 27 Raymond Andrews August 31, 2009 at 14:25

    What would be a positive way to use the BML aspects that I have?

    I am a strong believer in equality of the sexes. I have been a member of National Organization for Women and donate monthly to Equality Action Fund since June of last year. The organization was actually founded on October 29, 1966. That’s exactly 5 years before I was born. Therefore, it was formed during the Sun conjunct heliocentric South Eris Node in Scorpio.

    I also have strong feminine traits. My estrogen levels are high. I have very feminine finger ratio (my index finger is longer than my ring finger on both hands). Scientists say that means being exposed to more estrogen when I was in my mother’s womb.

    I am very attracted to feminist type of women. My exgirlfriend was a feminist, and her mother was extremist type of feminist. Therefore our relationship didn’t work out.

    also my biological father was out of my life since I was a baby. I never knew him. My mother told me that he was nonconformist type,extremely sensitive,emotional,and superstitious. I was rebellious against my stepfather who was very controlling. My mother seems to have Lilith traits. She has Moon in Scorpio square Pluto,trine Mercury-Venus-Uranus.

    Winona Ryder is my birthdate twin, and I wonder about how her prominent BML plays out in her chart.

  28. 28 kingsley August 31, 2009 at 16:04

    Hello Raymond. That is very interesting what you say about your estrogen levels. I like the way you have researched biological and physiological conditions in your case.

    If my memory is working I think in Winona Ryder’s case, she once had an issue with stealing? Cleptomania wasn’t it?. Black Moon Lilith isn’t necessarily all about womens rights or misogyny however I like the way you align yourself with womens rights. Sounds like you have already found a way to express your identity through Lilith.

    The Lilith archetype is not that straight forward where Black Moon Lilith is concerned Raymond.

    It sounds like your male role models in life were somewhat innefective for you. You have had to develop your own sense of identity (Sun) in other ways. This Black Moon Lilith influence with the Sun can describe a unique expression of identity. Sometimes we may not like the way our mothers or fathers work as role models in life. In time we can learn how to reject or accept aspects of their input to our personality development.

    The Black Moon Lilith aspect in our development however it can be largely unidentifiable as being transferred or “implanted” in us by parents – its hard to differentiate Black Moon Lilith in personality however here your sense of identity Raymond is “Lilith influenced”. It may be a subconcious aspect of personality that really belongs to your father or step father. Perhaps it is the way your Mother tried to be a “father” for you? The signature will relate to some kind of authority issue.

    The expression of Sun BML can easily be transferred onto other authoritative types too. It is a part of ourselves that we “hate” (largely a difficult and non integrated part of personality) but we only seem to recognise this part in others. (projection, displacement and transferrence)

    I am not exactly sure what might be helpful in your case Raymond however I do know that that the more one identifies and safely expresses their Black Moon Lilith emphasis, the better one can differentiate this incongruous aspect of personality.

    Learning and practicising to express your own unique sense of identity is helpful. Let your own authority and desire to shine in some way Raymond. Embrace the feminine parts however not to ignore the male side in preference. Otherwise Lilith will feel un recognised! I am talking personality here and not sexuality by the way.

    Keep shining Raymond and be ok about the self feedback you may glean from your Sun – Black Moon Lilith emphasis.

    best regards


  29. 29 michelle September 1, 2009 at 22:05

    Hi I have a man in my life who has BML and the asteroid Lilith both conjunct his Sag ascendant. He also has a moon/sun/mercury neptune conjunction in the 10th. Overall he is super sexy, and magnetic, and I am absolutely obsessed with him. He has strong libra/and scorpio stelliums which give him a definite aura of sex/love/attraction. Unfortunately, he is not my husband and he is married, to a woman we all agree on is quite masculine in her demeanor, and they fight and overall do not appear to have much love between them. Okay bottom line I would like to get over this obsession I have with him, and put this all behind me. BTW, his Liliths and ascendant are opposite my sun. Then there is the Dark moon thing mine is conjunct his Venus, in Scorpio.Thank you!!

  30. 30 kingsley September 2, 2009 at 08:48

    Hi Michelle thanks for posting about Lilith. Your “sexy” man seems to have a great appeal for you. The ascendant and Black Moon Lilith represents his persona. Underneath his outwardly Lilithy persona is another part of his personality – perhaps a “truer” part of himself that is in a lovless marriage?

    He will always be enticing to you Michelle. If you wish to stop your “obsession” it may be necessary to look at your own chart. I wouldnt worry about the Dark Moon thing Michelle, however BML and the Asteroid Lilith on his ascendant can make for a very persuasive person.

    It sounds as though he needs space in his relationship to exersize his Lilith “talents”, his sexuality and his magnetism with other woman. In his case if he is good at something why would he stop that thing? He sounds quite exciting Michelle and that can be addictive. With his Moon sun Neptune thing I wonder whether he really knows who he is? Best of luck with moving on from your “Lilith Man”.


  31. 31 michelle September 3, 2009 at 05:54

    Hi Kingsley, Wow, I wonder why you say I will always be obsessed with him? Its been 5 years now, and nothing has changed, I was hoping for a more cheery prognosis. One more thing how do I calculate the true versus mean apogee? Its 15 degrees difference for my chart. I know this because my solar fire program is on 2 different computers and I haven’t a clue why each one has a different lilith calculation. BTW, one of the calculations has his lilith exactly conj my north node, while my Lilith is 4 degrees different than his, but still conj my NN. No wonder this is so profound! Also, I know his parents birthdays, and his mother has lilith conj her sun/NN in Leo, while the father has lilith conj his moon/SN in Cancer. I mean really!!!- this man was meant to resolve lilith issues for sure in this lifetime. Must have been a painful childhood. I know nothing of his father,I hear his mother was a really a controlling woman (a bitch). His wife has her sun conj his Lilith– yeah they drive each other crazy, but from what I understand its a very tight fated relationship? What is your take on this aspect in synastry?
    The luminaries in his chart are both conj the MC; the sun on one side in the 9th, and the moon on the other side in the 10th only 5 degrees apart!!Very cool chart. Thank you for any light you can shed on this conundrum. I know I gave TMI so take what you can and work with it.

  32. 32 kingsley September 3, 2009 at 10:05

    Hello Michelle, actually I didnt say that “you will always be obsessed”. I said that you will always be “enticed” by him. I can stop my obsession with chocolate however it doesnt mean that I am not “enticed” by chocolate.

    The parents Lilith positions are interesting Michelle. You can set the different calculations for BML in the solar fire “preferences” and then “edit settings”. There was an older version of solar fire that only calculated the mean position of BML I think.

    There sounds like a great deal of relationship transference going on with wife and parents and you michelle. He is probably a part of a long line of generational parenting methods Michelle. Strong transferrence of issues and values handed down. The inherited aspects are not always “issues” and could be facial appearance or some cultural influence in a persons manner?

    It makes sense to be attacted to someone that “reminds” of our Mother or Father etc because we sort of “know” already how to live in a relationship with them. Sometimes an attraction in this regard is “designed” to sort out the old issues between the parents but vicariously through the relationship.

    Some strong Lilith types do not easily recognise there issues. Its all black and white to them. Self reflection or therapy just doesnt work for some Lilith types. I have no idea whether thats true for your friend?

    Usually Sun Moon over angles represents a strong view on relationships however with Neptune, there is a dissolving effect. Perhaps in a more creative way the person presents himself “to the world” quite uniquely. The person may be a guru of some kind, he is very sensitive to relationships however he may have difficulties knowing his true feelings and expressing his identity. Usually with Sun Nept, moon Nept, there is compulsive – drug – alcoholic traits in the family.

    People see what they want to see in Neptune Moon or Sun. He probably doesnt know why people keep seeing him the way they do? He can easily be a figure of other peoples transferrence, yet its up to him to present the image of himself to the world.


  33. 33 michelle September 3, 2009 at 22:35

    Kingsley you really know what you are talking about. Astrology is amazing and Lilith is definitely a profound indicator. Yes others do transfer onto him as he sort of makes himself available for that, be it the perfect father, friend, lover, and maybe husband as this woman felt when she found him. It doesn’t make any of this any easier however, as I feel as if I have been dooped–yes he is in a guru type position because of his career which by the way he has ended /retired from. I feel betrayed now as we only email and I see how differently he communicates via email rather than how he talks or presents himself as loving in person, but the emails are almost painful in the lack of warmth! Also– Pluto has been transitting my natal true Lilith for a while now, being at 29degrees sag, conj my north node, in the 8th. Not an easy time for me emotionally. Can you direct me to any info on this 8th house position? I feel that it means I am very much attracted to exploring the dark/ hidden side of humanity or myself, and he holds special allure because he embodies it! I just thought it was sex appeal. Maybe he is just really bent out of shape i.e. is in a lot of pain and that is the attractive force between us. He is hard for me to stay away from, but I fear it is not a 2 way street. a double whammy. Yeah chocolate… but laced with heroin. Overall he is amazing and extraordinary, and I do wish him well, but I do want to be happy and free of this longing for what is probably nothing more than an illusion, which he has created and enjoys reaping the benefits of. He does know that he does this to others, and I feel he hasn’t any idea how to be different. Power is hard to walk away from. Thank you so much!

  34. 34 kingsley September 3, 2009 at 23:01

    Hello Michelle, the eighth house is about instincts and resources. Its a kind of house for “surviving”.

    The Nodes and BML in the eighth would be a great deal of potential to survive on your own instincts. Good at closing deals and getting funding Michelle.

    Best of luck


  35. 35 Sonya February 2, 2010 at 15:39

    Hi Kingsley,
    My BML and Neptune are in the first house in Scorpio along with Juno and Vesta, I believe? I was born on Dec. 9, 1963 in Albuquerque, NM. What does that mean for me?

  36. 36 kingsley February 3, 2010 at 08:03

    Hello Sonya

    It would mean that Pluto has been stirring things up lately.


  37. 37 Sonya February 13, 2010 at 14:18

    I guess you could say that because it has been conjuncting my mercury? What do you mean by that? I was wondering what the significance of my lilith moon and my neptune in the first house in Scopio would represent in me. I also have a plethora of asteroids in the first house in Scorpio…Juno, vesta…etc…What does that mean?

  38. 38 kingsley February 13, 2010 at 16:31

    Hello Sonya. Apologies for being so cryptic however at the same time perhaps I didnt have time to delve into your personal chart without a good reason to do so. The comment section here doesnt automatically allow you the right for free readings as such.I do what I can though in my own generous way. If you feel generous its ok to offer a tip in the services page or ask for a particular reading and pay the subscribed fees Sonya. (show me the money)

    Mars is the ruler of your ascendent and Pluto has been conjunct that lately including your Mercury it seems. This means that you are going through some physical changes and other transformative experiences involving your personal relating skills.

    PLuto is also square the Moon which may highlight your communication skills. Perhaps others see you as rather “short” or to the point. Pluto is helping you to adjust whatever is not working right now in your communication and mobility areas. You may have skills as an orator or debater someone who likes an argument.

    Neptune and Black Moon Lilith in your 1st house represents how others may see you in some idealistic light. What they see may not be a true representation of pesonality – as you may be familiar with. This may create all sorts of issues and you are most likely unaware of unless you have done well to spiritually evolve over the years.

    Pluto transiting your asc ruler would most likely bring physiological issues or actual physical ailments due to stress and other factors. Your persona is changing somewhat and you may even be changing your appearance in simple ways or even by surgery. Pluto would be like a “gun shot” in your life and the convalescing post surgery.

    Having so many asteroids in Scorpio is cool. I have the same deal going on in Pisces in my tenth house. If these asteroids are all mainly in your first house Sonya, then there is most likely quite complex descriptions about your personality. You maybe quite passionate in a number of areas during your life time.

    The focus of these passions will revolve around you, your work and creativity etc. Perhaps you are glamorous and focused on presenting a particular image in your various working and social environments.

    Neptune and BML can easily disguise the nature of personality even to its “owner”. You are charismatic in some way although looking underneath the surface may reveal quite complex issues. Pluto has been “stirring that pot” lately.

    I hope that helps Sonya. I would appreciuate your feeback or a tip would be nice.


  1. 1 Lilith Edits « Astrology by Kingsley Trackback on August 8, 2009 at 16:02

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